Podcast: How an anti-fraud startup fights deepfake fraud

Whitney McDonald 12:42:15
Whitney, good day and welcome to The Buzz a financial institution automation information podcast. My title is Whitney McDonald and I’m the editor of financial institution automation Information. Right now is February 6, 2025 Becoming a member of me is Brandon min, co founder and CEO of startup herd safety. He’s right here to debate how herd securities expertise is utilizing AI to determine and battle voice primarily based fraud at monetary establishments heard safety will demo their expertise in March in Nashville at Financial institution automation summit 2025 go to financial institution automation summit.com for extra details about the summit and the demo problem. Thanks for becoming a member of us. Brandon,Brandon Min 12:42:52
yeah, in fact. And thanks once more for having us. Whitney, yeah. My title is Brandon min. I’m the co founder and CEO of herd safety. My background begins about eight years in the past I jumped into the cybersecurity world. I’d say the largest firm I used to be part of that was a startup. Was an organization known as Duo Safety that specialised in multi issue authentication. Was a part of the journey of that firm into getting acquired as a part of Cisco now right this moment, and from there, I had actually gotten a way of how organizations deal with their customers by way of their person primarily based safety. And what I imply by that’s, how nicely do customers perceive cyber safety and greatest practices in addition to what their function is by way of defending the group as a complete? And that all the time caught with me. In fact, multi issue authentication is a really in a way, a private factor, as a result of it’s on everyone’s telephone, and from there, it my time at duo sort of formed the concepts of constructing cyber safety primarily based instruments which might be centered on person both consciousness or safety general from that standpoint, so quick ahead just a few years, as a result of it’s All blur previous the pandemic and every part actually and I we began heard safety in late 2023 being closely centered on entering into person particular safety. That led us into this portion of AI generated content material and deep faux primarily based safety. Nice.Whitney McDonald 12:44:33
Nicely, thanks once more for being right here, and let’s take {that a} step additional. Why don’t you inform us somewhat bit extra about herd safety? Um, sort of give me somewhat little bit of perception into what precisely you’re fixing for.Brandon Min 12:44:45
Yeah, yeah. And, however earlier than I leap into it, I’ll, I’ll set the bottom later context of I’ll be speaking and utilizing the phrase social engineering rather a lot, so I feel it’s a typical phrase, however simply so everybody’s on that very same web page. Social engineering is any sort of assault towards a group that targets customers. So the commonest is a a faux phishing e-mail, one thing to get anyone to surrender, one thing as a way to for an attacker to achieve entry into a company. Usually, that’s a account phrase, password these days, multi issue authentication credentials, and so on. So I’ll be utilizing that phrase fairly a bit, however particularly heard safety helps banks fight voice primarily based social engineering assaults to primarily stop wire fraud and account takeover, and this concept and drawback has been shaping, in fact, as generative. AI has develop into such an enormous, highly effective software and challenge. Don’t wish to utterly knock it by saying it’s a problem, however it’s a it’s introduced points to many various organizations that we that we work with, throughout the board and historically, as I mentioned, social engineering has been centered on, very generally round e-mail primarily based safety and phishing emails. I’m certain nearly everybody has both seen a extremely poorly written phishing e-mail or has been tricked by a perhaps and even an inside phishing consciousness marketing campaign and clicked on it and gotten enrolled into some further safety consciousness coaching I’ve as nicely. It’s has occurred to me as soon as in my life. I’m not proud to say that, however that’s true. However with particularly with the brand new expertise and generative AI, we’re seeing the power to create a subsequent stage base of content material throughout the board for social engineering, and that features extra in depth emails in generative AI textual content and producing artificial Voice, constructing AI brokers that may mass produce wider assaults and replicate assaults at a quicker charge, in order that one hacker in a in a basement, someplace in the midst of nowhere, is definitely in a position to go after very giant enterprises throughout the board now, due to the repeatability that AI presents to itself, however. So in fact, there’s a myriad of various instruments, each paid and open supply, now available on the market, and that enables for fraud to actually be all over the place and generated from anyone. And I imagine it’s as a lot as AI has leveled the taking part in area for on a regular basis staff or on a regular basis employees, simply by way of getting sure duties performed, and so on. It additionally has leveled the taking part in area for hackers to have the ability to produce very refined assaults throughout the board. In order that acquired us into actually specializing in this subsequent stage of voice primarily based particular social engineering assaults. And the commonest instance is getting a telephone name that’s somebody impersonating a both an individual or an account or a buyer, and attempting to take financial institution info so as or provoke a wire fraud or beat voice verification primarily based platforms, these are sometimes a number of the commonest that we see.

Whitney McDonald 12:48:20
Yeah, a few issues to interrupt down there, in fact, with generative AI, one of many issues that you just talked about is, is the dimensions. You recognize, you’re not only one hacker such as you talked about in a basement that may, you already know, do one scheme and transfer alongside, however you’ll be able to actually go after these bigger enterprises with this refined expertise that’s, you already know, proper at everyone’s fingertips. So perhaps you might speak by way of somewhat bit about what the conversations appear like when banks method heard, what are they attempting to resolve for? What are they seeing? What are the issues that they’re coming to you with that? Hey, I’ve this challenge over and over. How can we eradicate that, or look ahead to that, or monitor that? You recognize, extra of a proactive than reactive take at fraud? Perhaps you’ll be able to speak us by way of what these conversations with financial institution purchasers appear like. Yeah,

Brandon Min 12:49:09
completely. I feel it’s it’s primarily been centered on two units of various kinds of banks, and I’d say, we’ve come throughout groups which might be very proactive about this drawback, have examine within the information and perceive that this can develop into an enormous drawback, I’ll say, not simply in banking, in each business. Sadly, any sort of cybersecurity menace is often a reactive method for many organizations, not proactive. However I within the proactive primarily based conversations, many banks that come to us have basically mentioned that they’ve gotten complaints from their buyer base that folks have known as them, impersonating the financial institution, or they’ve truly had small companies get taken over and attempt to provoke particular these hackers try to provoke particular wire primarily based fraud towards the financial institution, impersonating a selected hacker. And I’d prefer to take {that a} step additional and say the how these assaults look are actually in two totally different fashions. Is one is the utilization of artificial voice with AI to basically impersonate a selected particular person’s voice. So I may take your voice, or anyone may take my voice from this podcast now and basically use that with about actually you’ll must pattern about 5 to 10 seconds and be capable to immediately impersonate somebody’s voice and reside transpose that onto a name. So let’s put ourselves in a, you already know, from an inside standpoint, I’m the CEO of a, you already know, Financial institution A, and CFO of financial institution, a calls me, and it sounds identical to him. They have been having a dialog. It sounds very a lot about, you already know, hey, we have to wire some cash to a selected vendor, you already know, whether or not, no matter sort of dialog that’s, and it sounds identical to the person who we’re speaking to. And so a number of the unique banks that got here involved with us, we’re truly listening to that we’re truly group sized banks the place tellers have been getting impersonated and speaking to enterprise primarily based clients of their of their buyer base, they usually have been recognizing the voice of the teller, regardless that they didn’t know essentially that particular person by title, and so on, that they had an understanding of, I’ve heard this voice earlier than. I belief this voice, they usually have been giving freely very essential account info. And what these hackers have been doing was then turning that again to the group financial institution and impersonating the shopper again and attempting to provoke a wire fraud, and so on. You recognize, in fact, some have fallen for it. Some haven’t. And it’s it may be very highly effective by way of how that appears and the numbers. In fact, on the rising facet, I imagine it’s over 700% of deep faux primarily based assaults have gone up in 2023 2024 numbers are nonetheless popping out, and that’s. Sense. However we estimate these to be even larger, and particularly towards monetary establishments, as a result of it’s so sometimes two areas. Is one which they’ve quite simple to contact contact facilities or some sort of method to get entry to voice communication. And two, it is vitally easy to maneuver cash in these organizations, as a result of they’re shifting cash probably the most in that sense. So general, that’s sort of the primary space on this AI generated artificial facet, and the second facet is simply common voice fraud. So there are some banks which might be so giant that we’ve talked to the place you wouldn’t know your Teller’s voice or title, essentially, they could possibly be utilizing AI to hackers. Might be utilizing AI to truly copy particular tone or match sure accents in sure components of the US. So we had a selected financial institution that was getting attacked from someplace within the Center East, and people customers, or I’m sorry, these hackers, have been impersonating southern primarily based accents, as a result of this was someplace within the deep south, et cetera. And naturally, that’s very accessible now, however it’s nonetheless a special type of AI primarily based assault. However we’re additionally ready for the forms of assaults that don’t use AI both. In order that they have have been pushing for bank card primarily based info, pushing for account primarily based info, and so on, and we’re in a position to truly assist organizations nonetheless construct danger profiles round how we’ll say pushy a hacker could possibly be versus a buyer in that sense.

Whitney McDonald 12:53:56
Now perhaps we may, alternatively, speak somewhat bit about, you already know, the how do you, you already know? How does heard battle this? How do you monitor for this? Clearly, the examples that you just’ve been giving are, I imply, it’s a complicated method. Such as you mentioned, you don’t want that a lot of an audio chew to get that you already know, trusted voice that you already know, or you already know, have one thing that’s recognizable and on either side, such as you talked about, it could possibly be a CFO, or it could possibly be the consumer facet as nicely. How does the expertise behind heard work? What are you monitoring for? Speak us by way of the tech. How does a financial institution leverage the tech? Get us by way of the how? Yeah, completely.

Brandon Min 12:54:36
Nicely, I’ll cease. I’ll begin by the core of the tech, which is de facto our detection primarily based engine. And so in that sense, at a face worth, we’re in a position to detect the presence of AI on any reside name or earlier audio primarily based recording with lower than about 10 seconds of audio. And the important thing right here is that we are able to do that with none baseline coaching. So there’s lots of instruments on the market that may come to a financial institution and say, Hey, we’ve got to work with you for about perhaps a month or two to ascertain some sort of voice coaching for our AI to ensure that it to start working. That goes out the window with our product, we truly can implement inside half-hour and be capable to start working instantly, in that sense. And in order that’s one of many proprietary and actually benefits, parts, advantageous parts of our product, excuse me, which might be you’re not likely getting a lot downtime there integrations with our and sometimes, what we’ve performed is as a part of that core tech, we needed to have the ability to enable banks to combine this with any sort of voice communication that they do, or any sort of voice communication that they’re nervous about sooner or later as nicely. So mostly, we’re seeing it with Void primarily based programs, Cisco finesse, AWS join, and so on, the place we are able to immediately combine our expertise into inbound primarily based name facilities or contact facilities, buyer help traces, no matter you’d prefer to name it, and be capable to produce a rating of AI primarily based danger inside the first 10 seconds of any name. And the fantastic thing about that is we don’t want to some various things. Is one, we don’t want to alter the contact Heart’s circulation. We simply added into a part of the dialog, they will proceed to undergo the identical verification primarily based processes that they already do, however they’re including this further fast layer of is there AI presence on this name or not instantly? And say that rating is comparatively excessive, let’s say 98% 95% and so on. The financial institution can select what they wish to do after that. I don’t we’ve got a financial institution we work with particularly the place they I’m not going to provide away their actual course of, however let’s say they’ve a 5 step course of as a way to do verification. So what they have been in a position to do is add the. Portion in to check for AI presence with out truly having to alter that 5 step course of. So on the shopper facet, they don’t see any distinction, and on the caller facet, the timing remains to be the identical, since you don’t want to attend for any sort of verification. You simply undergo your circulation, get the particular person speaking, and we are going to give that response. After which what they’ve instructed individuals to do is, what if it’s over 80 90% on the decision, particularly, they really undergo one other set of verification steps. And if it’s 100% they are saying you must both name again or go to one among our branches, and so on. So we’re very Our motto is we don’t wish to mess with the circulation of a contact middle. We wish to give simply be part of it as a way to defend the general security with out ruining anybody’s daily, or inflicting lots of change administration in that sense. In order that’s the primary manner. After which the second manner is, which is one thing very distinctive to us is we’ve got constructed methods to guard cell primarily based gadgets as nicely, so iOS and Android throughout the board. And with that, that’s what helps with the interior primarily based conversations a bit extra the CEO CFO and executives that want safety from this kind of from this kind of fraud. And never solely can we develop detection primarily based expertise for them to guard themselves, in order that CEO can detect if CFO is anyone’s utilizing CFOs voice as AI, we are also constructing instruments to permit for CEO CFOs, and so on, to guard their very own voice. If they are saying, don’t acknowledge a quantity, they will truly activate an artificial voice for themselves as a way to vet the decision as they’re beginning it earlier than they so their voice can’t be stolen in that sense as nicely. So we’re attempting to construct as many preventative measures there as attainable. However sometimes, most accounts that we work with are VoIP primarily based programs, cell gadgets for these two use circumstances. After which we’re finally shifting into video conferencing, like right here, like we’ve, like, talked about from the audio primarily based facet as nicely.

Whitney McDonald 12:59:27
Yeah. So appears like there’s undoubtedly, you already know, developments being made as nicely. You recognize, totally different iterations rising as because the fraudsters sustain, you already know, attempting to maintain up with the fraudsters simply as a lot as you’ll be able to sustain with already. What’s in motion right this moment. Now, actually rapidly. I additionally needed to say that you can be doing a reside demo at our upcoming summit, the financial institution automation Summit, in Nashville, with out giving an excessive amount of away. And I do know that you just simply talked by way of, clearly, the necessity, how the product works, all that great things. Perhaps you’ll be able to share somewhat bit about what attendees can count on out of your reside demo. What’s going to they see?

Brandon Min 13:00:04
Yeah, yeah. Nicely, I imply, actually all the way down to the fundamentals. Is every part I simply talked about in that sense, as a result of it may be proven in just a few minutes. And that’s the actually, the fantastic thing about it as nicely, is we’re, in fact, not going to point out a full implementation in that sense, however that’d be one thing, yeah, that may be one thing we’re not till AI may do this for us. I don’t know if we’re that good but, however we we’d see it within the sense of, we’ve got a we’ll use a VoIP primarily based system. We’ll run a name from actually a perspective of either side that I talked about, AI primarily based voice and non AI primarily based, boy primarily based voice, excuse me, and with the ability to make the most of that in several methods to point out various kinds of voice primarily based assaults. And I feel the primary factor I would like any of our viewers to remove is not only what our resolution can do, however actually understanding the depths of this drawback as a result of it’s AI, remains to be one thing that we’re all getting used to. It’s nonetheless one thing that companies are hopefully constructing methods to construct proactively into streamlining their enterprise or getting extra environment friendly, and so on, which I’m assuming, that’s why they’re at locations like this convention. However on the finish of the day, they’re constructing consciousness round voice primarily based social engineering and simply how highly effective it may be would be the important purpose right here. So I not solely wish to present how straightforward it’s to construct a complicated assault, which is what I’ll do, by actually exhibiting a few of my old-fashioned moral hacker primarily based abilities additional I did solely good, good man hacking for for the file and and actually constructing a mainly, I’d, I wish to present how a hacker can put one thing collectively in lower than two or three minutes, after which how refined that may look with out our product, after which how our product is definitely in a position to catch this throughout the board. So yeah, excited to point out it. And hopefully. Hey, hopefully I nonetheless bear in mind a few of my safety analysts within the menace primarily based abilities.

Whitney McDonald 13:02:22
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